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View Full Version : HOA says no external antenna... Looking for advice



RChaos
01-31-2017, 04:47 AM
Here I am in sunny Southern California, looking to set up a base station antenna for CB in a Home Owner's Association. No external antennas at all, they say, but that's thanks to satellite cable... so I'm not sure I want to try fighting them on it. Possibly, I'll have to make a special antenna to get around their rules I've been reading up on that a bit... but I could probably use some advice.

I've been told I could cheat, and use a wire dipole. on the outside... hardly noticeable. The roof has two peaks which could probably hide an inverted V, if that is advisable...

The first peak where I could install an inverted Vee antenna faces west, and might let me pick up some action from not-too-distant truck stops. It's also the peak of the attic, so it must 20-30 feet in the air. Unfortunately, it's also the farthest from my radio room. I'd have to run about 30 feet of cable... through the attic, which is a real problem for other reasons. Also, lightning protection would be tough here: The most direct path would put the ground wire in front of two sliding glass windows, and would require me to drill through both a balcony floor, and a decorative concrete patio... one which is also a common area.

The second peak where I could install an inverted Vee antenna faces south. It starts on the first floor, and ends below a second story window, so it can't be more than 15 feet off the ground. Also... it faces a row of trees... and the neighbor's one story roofline, which is probably a few feet taller than the peak of this roof. Out beyond those obstructions is... a lot of hills... maybe some rich folks playing with radios... maybe not. On the plus side, I'd need less than 10 feet of coax to connect it to my radio, and would only need to drill through one sheet of stucco, and one of drywall to get there. Also, I could take the lightning protection straight down to dirt... dirt three feet from my gas meter, but still... The circuit breakers are also right there... as far as a covert external antenna goes, this would be very easy... I just don't know if it would get out anywhere useful.

Pretty much everywhere else I might want to try hanging a dipole has metal rain gutters in the way. I could maybe get away with a horizontal dipole facing east, but lightning protection would go straight down the front of the house, and I'd have to cut into the driveway to install the ground rod. Also, it would take at least 20 feet of coax, and a whole lot of cursing up in the attic.

Let's talk about the attic.

My un-friended AC installers put in a giant metal AC/Heater/Fan/Air Purifier monster right next to the entrance to the attic... with it's octopus arms of ductwork literally forming a nest around the entrance. If I want to get anywhere in the attic... which must run for at least 20 feet in one direction... I'll have to build a bridge over these octopus arms... One bridge for all three directions the octopus arms block. There'll be no bridging over the AC unit though. I'm a much better electrician than I am a carpenter, and my car isn't really equipped for hauling lumber, so I'd prefer not to build many bridges if I can help it.

There's another issue with the attic though, that I should point out: On top of the attic is plywoood, 2x6 beams, and 1 inch thick concrete tiles, painted red... probably with an iron-based pigment. I've been trying to find out if any CB signal can punch through that, but so far, I didn't see that question specifically addressed.

Now... if I want to run any cables in the attic, I've got to build at least one bridge. for example, that inverted Vee I suggested on the west side... That'll need a bridge over the ductwork so I can run cables.

If I were to build a bridge over the ductwork, I would have more than enough space to make a horizontal dipole at the peak of the house's roof, fully 25-30 feet in the air. I think I'd need maybe 15 feet of coax to get that to my radio... but... them tiles...

Right by the access hatch, I could just shove a mag mount with a 2 foot antenna onto the AC/everything unit. It's gotta be the size of a car's roof, and if not, there's plenty of nearby metal I could tie it to... I guess that could at least show me if I can get through the tiles. If I want that permanent, I'll still have to build a bridge over the ductwork though.

I suppose I might see if there's some "real base station" antenna I can stick in the attic. I know there's that "portable indoor base station" firestick sells... but you need a ground plane for it, and there's no metal on the areas that are five feet tall... so I'd have to go to the hardware store, and lay sheet metal... UNDER the insulation, because otherwise, I have only 4 foot 6 inches to play with.

Of course, with all of these attic ideas, I'll probably be getting some TV interference... so I guess I'd need a low-pass filter?

JesseJamesDallas
01-31-2017, 06:24 AM
I would scrap any ideas of putting a antenna in the attic....All that metal duct work up there is just going to kill any signal you might have from your antenna.

Got any trees?

Jay Mojave
01-31-2017, 08:31 AM
Contact the ARRL they run into this all the time.

http://www.arrl.org/prb-1

222DBFL
01-31-2017, 08:26 PM
Only issue I can see with that is he isn't an amateur radio operator is he? If it's just a CB'er, would the ARRL help then? Or would he just have to abide by the rules set forth by the HOA at this point? Just what I read from the article you posted Jay Mojave. I could be totally wrong so please don't take what I am saying the wrong way. I too have run into issues with HOA where I live. Luckily none of my neighbors seem to mind my antenna so it's not such a bad deal. But it could be if I had crappy neighbors!! Not having your amateur license pretty well eliminates any rights you have for setting up a tower other than getting permission from the HOA, or getting your amateur license and going that route from what I understand. Or like I said, I could be totally wrong. But it's just the way I read the article you posted. Sucks for the regular CB'er at times!!! Good luck to the poster.

Jay Mojave
02-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Hello 222DBFL: Yeah I agree that's a good concern. I believe one can join the ARRL without having a ham license, and get help with the HOA and NO Antennas crapp. I believe the FCC PBR-1 document says allowances must me made for allowing Ham's to have a outside antenna, in a reasonable manner. I would think that would also include a CB Antenna as it is a authorized radio service as a commercial two way FM radio would be.


Many years ago I moved into a new track home area, and put up my Moonraker 4 Beam and Tower. It took a few weeks for them to come knock on the door complaining and asking me to take down the antenna and tower. I said sure with a court order. Talking to my attorney he said the CCR's ( Covenants & Conditions and Restrictions) were set up by the contractor who built the housing track homes. But they have gone out of business and it didn't leave much there to enforce these CCR's. My advice was to let them take legal action and take down the antenna and tower with Judges court order. Make them pay for an attorney and such. But because I was moving into another house in 8 to 9 months the unfriendly neighbors backed down.


I believe each HOA and CCR are different in each situation and contacting a attorney is a wise thing to do. That's why I suggested contacting the ARRL as they have fought this problem many times over. Yes it is a good thing to go get your Technicians Ham License as its simple, and local ham clubs are all over the place. It does help.


I moved in the house I am in now and put up a large vertical antenna, but didn't connect it to anything. After a few days here comes the neighbors complaining about interference and such, showing them a empty room with coax connected to nothing fixed all that. When I did hook up all the equipment I did interfere with the neighbors cheap wall mart phones. I hired a telephone repair and installation guy, to fix it, he knew what to do and being a good neighbor goes a long way. Especially if it all ends up in court some day.

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert

222DBFL
02-01-2017, 10:12 AM
I totally agree. Being a good neighbor is the the answer to many issues like this! I got some flack for the first antenna I put up. But after that no one has said a word. I had the Sirio vector 4000 up at 27ft to the base. Not real high, but with the antenna it could have fallen a bit into the neighbors yard. At any rate. I agree, contacting someone for help with the matter would be the way to go. And also to become friends with the neighbors as much as possible!! I have been fortunate to only have had issue with one neighbor and they are friends. Put a couple ferrite chokes on some old computer speakers and that was that. And since having the NV4K up I haven't had any complaints.

RChaos
02-03-2017, 03:32 AM
I've got trees, which are trimmed by the HOA. If push comes to shove, I'd rather send them a proposal for an antenna on the house than try to put up something in a tree. I'd also not really like to send them a proposal.

There's space in the attic that isn't near any metal other than nails... It's just... completely blocked by the duct work which literally surrounds the only entrance to the attic. I should get pictures... You'll not be impressed with the choices the AC installers made.


But... any idea that involve the attic will require some carpentry to make a bridge over this nonsense ducting job they did... and my only idea that doesn't involve the attic involves an inverted Vee on the garage, about 15 feet above ground level, with hills not more than two miles away.

Then again, ideas for inside the attic put my antenna under the roof... which, where it is not metal, is 1 inch thick concrete tiles. Can CB transmit through an inch of concrete?

222DBFL
02-03-2017, 07:09 AM
You could try what some do in their attic, which is use 2 x 5ft firestick antennas and a build a mount out of large metal strapping with the holes in it. You can make an inverted V or place them horizontally. Here are a couple photos of ones. Something like this, but make it an inverted V if you like. The 2 that are pictured appear to be setup more for local and DX use rather than being horizontal for mostly DX use. Horizontally mounted, your local distance might not be that great. 5 miles maybe a little more maybe less. I've a dipole about 40ft up or more and it works for about 8 miles. And that is it. That is a horizontal one. But for DX it's great and the noise levels are normally lower.
Anyways. You can make yourself a bracket or hit the local truck stop if you have one or online, and get a couple mirror mounts and try those as well for making one in the attic. But I've heard many say that this setup does work for what it is. Hope this helps and have a good one. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170203/98c57e0b75020898fde15c88fe322d4f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170203/5404728358f0ca89230a9307160a2660.jpg

JesseJamesDallas
02-03-2017, 09:54 AM
What 222 said would work as long as you can keep it away from the duct work...

What I was thinking with a tree, is getting a push-up pole and attaching something like a IMAX 2000 to it and maybe camouflage paint the pole and antenna, then run it up threw the branches till the antenna pokes out the top of the tree. You could tie the pole to the tree trunk to hold it in place... no need to climb the tree.

BOOTY MONSTER
02-03-2017, 04:30 PM
can you have a flag pole ? if so get a fiberglass one and put the 2k inside as high as you can

RChaos
02-03-2017, 05:54 PM
I'd really prefer something that doesn't draw any attention. That's why I'm mainly looking into inverted vees, or something in the attic.

With only 5 feet of vertical clearance in the attic, I'd need some rather short firesticks for anything vertical.

Also, since something in the attic would be transmitting through overlapping inch thick concrete tiles, I'd really like to know if CB radios can even transmit through concrete before I go get a pair of 2 foot antennas, or rig up a pair if 5 feet in an L shape, or try some super fancy indoor base antenna...

222DBFL
02-03-2017, 10:17 PM
Don't mess with 2ft antennas. It's a waste of time and money. Might as well be using 2 coat hangers. Antennas need length to work right. A real 11 meter cb band antenna measured about 102"-108" long, depending on the frequency desired to be the resonant point of the antenna. Which means where the antenna tunes at best with proper readings on an antenna analyzer. You shouldn't need an analyzer, but will need an external power/watt meter to get the VSWR tuned to an acceptable range. The longer the antenna physically, as that is what counts, not what some sales gimmick says. There is no such thing as a physical 5/8 wave length antenna for mobile use. Yes they claim 5/8 wave antennas with them being 5ft or shorter, but they are using wire wound antennas to make up for the actual physical length of a 5/8 wave antenna. A real 1/4 wave antenna is the 102"-108" whip, or whip/ball mount and spring setup to get close to 108" physically as that is what makes a 1/4 wave mobile antenna. You could run 2 5ft fire sticks I an Inverted V configuration and most likely would have enough room. Place the top the V as high as possibly and get the antennas themselves at a decent angle to one another and you should be good. But don't use anything shorter than a 4ft firestick or you are just wasting your time and effort. 5ft would be what I would look at and try to make work in an Inverted V configuration. It's possible. The antennas won't be like the ones in the pic, but they would look more like an Inverted or upside down V. Hope some of this might help and have a good one.

222DBFL
02-04-2017, 06:22 AM
Let me try and find an Inverted V dipole in an attic. Could you use 5ft firestick antennas then?? If so that would be the great. The 5ft long firestick antennas appear to be a pretty popular antenna for the attic installs with not a whole lot of room.
Let me find a pic of the bracket that someone made for using an Inverted V In the attic. Looks like what was used was 2 stud mounts, and a piece of steel strap with 3/8" holes in it. You can see the rest and hopefully get an idea as to what you need and how to make it. You want to keep the legs anywhere from 60-120 degrees. You can hang it up on the peak of the inside of the roof with a coat hanger. Seen that done as well. Or do like the one in the photo and place it as high as possible. Hope this one helped more than the first one.
And like I said before. Stay away from anything shorter than 4-5ft long as far as the antennas go. I think Wilson might make a similar antenna as the ones used in the pics. But I am pretty sure those are firestick antennas. Either wjll work.
Have a good day and hope you get something figured out. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170204/81500616cfadfdfb919cdebe50bf401e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170204/fd087a07fac28673a24df15bcf8978b8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170204/392bb5db6b267ed60dcfac1b18a86bcb.jpg

BOOTY MONSTER
02-04-2017, 09:57 AM
:thumb: :thumb:


Don't mess with 2ft antennas. It's a waste of time and money. Might as well be using 2 coat hangers. Antennas need length to work right. A real 11 meter cb band antenna measured about 102"-108" long, depending on the frequency desired to be the resonant point of the antenna. Which means where the antenna tunes at best with proper readings on an antenna analyzer. You shouldn't need an analyzer, but will need an external power/watt meter to get the VSWR tuned to an acceptable range. The longer the antenna physically, as that is what counts, not what some sales gimmick says. There is no such thing as a physical 5/8 wave length antenna for mobile use. Yes they claim 5/8 wave antennas with them being 5ft or shorter, but they are using wire wound antennas to make up for the actual physical length of a 5/8 wave antenna. A real 1/4 wave antenna is the 102"-108" whip, or whip/ball mount and spring setup to get close to 108" physically as that is what makes a 1/4 wave mobile antenna. You could run 2 5ft fire sticks I an Inverted V configuration and most likely would have enough room. Place the top the V as high as possibly and get the antennas themselves at a decent angle to one another and you should be good. But don't use anything shorter than a 4ft firestick or you are just wasting your time and effort. 5ft would be what I would look at and try to make work in an Inverted V configuration. It's possible. The antennas won't be like the ones in the pic, but they would look more like an Inverted or upside down V. Hope some of this might help and have a good one.

JesseJamesDallas
02-04-2017, 11:32 AM
I'd really prefer something that doesn't draw any attention. That's why I'm mainly looking into inverted vees, or something in the attic.

With only 5 feet of vertical clearance in the attic, I'd need some rather short firesticks for anything vertical.

Also, since something in the attic would be transmitting through overlapping inch thick concrete tiles, I'd really like to know if CB radios can even transmit through concrete before I go get a pair of 2 foot antennas, or rig up a pair if 5 feet in an L shape, or try some super fancy indoor base antenna...
One way to find out if radio waves will go threw the tiles or not, would be to take a portable AM radio up there and see if you can pick up stations as loud as you can outside of the house...AM radio waves work the same way CB radio waves work since they are all AM...I don't see there being a problem...If you had a metal roof, that might be a different story.

JAF0
02-11-2017, 06:59 AM
If you're in a newer area with underground power lines, and if the CC&Rs don't specifically address balloons, I'd take up the hobby of Open-House-TYPE balloon flying, you know, like kite flying. Who's to say what the string is made from, or whether or not it's metallic.

Some of those open house balloons fly above 100' out here, but you'd play hell trying to get a stable signal on a windy day. :doh:

smiles4u
12-18-2017, 10:42 PM
Google OTARD. It is a Federal law that preempts State, Local Law, and Neighborhood covenants. While it does not include CB antennas, it does give you some options. Put your tower up with a TV antenna on top of it. Let them challenge that, and then you show them the law. Then put your antenna up after that.

Cabin4
04-19-2018, 08:24 AM
How tall is your attic space?

Zero58
09-03-2019, 06:17 PM
Several Hams I know also live in a hoa neighborhood. they solved this no outside antenna crap with a Flag Pole Antenna.
several companys make them and I have heard good reports on them. FYI.

mjd420nova
09-03-2019, 10:25 PM
There are even some models to resemble a pine tree. Dishes can be hidden under fiberglass rocks.